#just bc i as a lesbian like someone that doesn't automatically make them also lgbt

[commajade]

ik this is from before but ive been thinking about the trans man butch post and idk... i don't like the idea of including attraction to trans men in lesbianism and when i was reading it i was like well good for the author but im not...attracted to trans men...and thats not part of being lesbian. like idk when this was written and if its older I get how diff norms could have impacted her understanding but yea...and also the line talking abt how the lover wants her like a man bc his thinking changed after starting T stuck out to me as weird too. and i mean maybe the modern understanding of sex hormones is just a lot diff so i wont go on about how thats not how T works but i feel like lesbians are usually very off put by someone "wanting us as a man"? food for thought ig

the thing is though, that it genuinely does not matter whether u think that person's experience is valid. ur allowed to judge that person and disagree, and u would be probably be aligned with a lot of other lgbt ppl around them. and it's ok if u disagree with me! this is the internet not an in-person and long standing lesbian social community, u r not accountable to me beyond basic human decency. i personally don't see a problem with it because people have all kinds of journeys with their identity and within lgbt social circles and butch and femme are relational social roles within a specific social and political context and the issue of transitioning while being butch is much bigger and much more difficult than we know and the author expressed that struggle beautifully.

i am absolutely not saying that because i don't see a problem in that story i'm allowing attraction to trans men to be a part of the definition of lesbianism. there's a difference between what actual people historically experienced and what is a correct on-paper definition of sexualities and lgbt social roles. i agree that i am not attracted to trans men and attraction to trans men should not be considered a part of the definition of what a lesbian is. there are actually trans men on this website that call themselves butch and make weird posts about gay men and lesbians having sex being normal. and it's gross, really really gross. another example of this would be bi femmes. on the internet i'm gonna be uncomfortable when a lot of bi women with no affiliation to or knowledge of lesbian bar culture and no love for butches call themselves femme but historically, bi women were an important part of butch femme bar culture and gave up a lot and gained a lot from taking on the responsibility of that social role, which continual rejection of men and wanting butches instead is a part of.

queerness is by definition outside of words, everything we do is resistance to language and outside of language and breaks apart language. the danger in these kinds of stories is when people use them as proof for ideas that are trying to disrupt our social formations and community structures and make our words meaningless, make the word lesbian no longer mean what it does. but the story doesn't do that, there's a reverence for lesbianism and the butch femme community that the narrator is terrified of losing the subversive power gained by becoming a part of that community and social structure. and about that section the narrator was put off by that too, terrified in fact.

finally, note that the passage never did firmly establish whether the narrator's partner considers himself a trans man completely. he could be a nonbinary transmasc lesbian like me that went through medical transition. he could be a trans man that still considers himself butch and that would be none of my business, he has def already been taken to task about it by his own community based on their own definitions of what being butch means. these terms come with sacrifice, they come with automatic rejection from society, they come with punishment both physical/legal and emotional, they aren't taking this shit lightly.

lesbian and trans experience is complicated and not going to fit neatly into any kind of narrative because we're communally writing the stories and definitions as they suit us and the community we have made. in general yeah saying lesbians are attracted to trans men is transphobic and lesbophobic but this is real people we're talking about, with real experiences that do in fact happen. it's not an idea, it's just what happened to those people. they're people of incorrect gender and incorrect desire which is the definition of what being lgbt is, and they should be considered as real human beings living through hell just to be who they are and survive. i don't think it's my role as a reader to further punish this person who's lived through more hardship for being gay and trans than i have, whose story is being very vulnerably told so i can benefit, so i can see some of myself and feel some connection in the past as a young nonbinary transmasc butch lesbian.